Caudalie Polyphenol C15 Anti-Wrinkle Defense Serum Review
Affiliate Links I Bought This July 16, 2014 | Reviews, Serum, Skincare
In the world of skincare, there is a fairly short list of ingredient actives that have substantial scientific evidence showing they can effectively enable collagen synthesis in the skin, and vitamin C is one of them. For this reason, and because of its antioxidant and brightening properties, vitamin C holds a firm place on my personal list of favorite skincare actives. I typically reach for L-ascorbic acid based serums as my source for this ingredient because they’re so widely accessible, affordable, and L-AA is a very bio-available form of topical vitamin C. But it’s not without its shortcomings – L-AA can be irritating, especially for sensitive skin, it’s only water soluble, and it has a very short shelf life. For this reason, I was very excited when Caudalie Polyphenol C15 Anti-Wrinkle Defense Serum was released earlier this year – it contains a relatively new form of vitamin C that doesn’t come with the same baggage as my L-AA based serums (e.g. Paula’s Choice C15 Super Booster, O.S.T. Vitamin C20 Serum). Today I’ll be talking about how the Caudalie C15 Serum measured up!
What is it?
Caudalie Polyphenol C15 Anti-Wrinkle Defense Serum ($62) is a concentrated antioxidant serum that promises to visibly reduce existing wrinkles and prevent new wrinkles from forming. This serum also promises to defend against free radicals caused by UV rays and pollution, as well as hydrate and plump the skin.
Ingredients:
Aqua (Water), Butylene Glycol, Glycerin, Squalane, Ascorbyl Tetraisopalmitate, Tocopherol, Ceteareth-20, Palmitoyl Grape Seed Extract, Parfum (Fragrance), Glyceryl Stearate SE, Potassium Sorbate, Acrylates/C10-30 Alkyl Acrylate Crosspolymer, Caprylyl Glycol, Xanthan Gum, Hyaluronic Acid, Carbomer, Sodium Phytate, Sodium Hydroxide
Here are the highlights of this formula:
Glycerin
Glycerin is an odorless, colorless, viscous sugar alcohol compound. Its humectant properties make it a popular cosmetic ingredient. Pure glycerin is able to absorb it’s own weight in water over a period of 3 days, and has been shown in numerous studies to improve skin elasticity, moisture, and barrier function.
Glycerol accelerates recovery of barrier function in vivo
Fluhr JW1, Gloor M, Lehmann L, Lazzerini S, Distante F, Berardesca E.
Acta Dermato Venereologica, November 1999
Glycerol replacement corrects defective skin hydration, elasticity, and barrier function in aquaporin-3-deficient mice
Mariko Hara, A. S. Verkman.
Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences of the United States of America, May/June 2003
Squalane
Squalane is the hydrogenated form of squalene, and unlike squalene, squalane is a very shelf stable ingredient. The skin naturally produces squalane in our younger years – it’s one of the major constituents of human sebum. Squalane production diminishes drastically after the age of 30 though, which can contribute to dry skin for many adults. Squalane is a lightly textured oil, absorbs easily, and possesses moisturizing, antioxidant, and anti-bacterial properties. It can be sourced from olives, sugar cane, or shark liver. The squalane in this particular formula is sourced from olives.
Ascorbyl Tetraisopalmitate
This ingredient is the vitamin C source for this serum. It’s a vitamin C derivative that actually converts into L-ascorbic acid once it’s penetrated the skin. In its ascorbyl tetraisopalmitate form, it differs from L-ascorbic acid in multiple ways. Firstly, it’s fat soluble, which helps ascorbyl tetraisopalmitate better penetrate the skin than water soluble C sources such as L-AA. Ascorbyl tetraisopalmitate is also far more stable than L-AA, so it has a much longer shelf life (12-18 months) than L-AA (2 weeks-6 months). Additionally, unlike L-AA, which requires a pH of around 3.5 to work effectively, ascorbyl tetraisopalmitate performs well at any pH between 4.0 and 6.0. This is a significant differentiator because the low pH of L-AA can cause irritation for many (it’s the reason for the tingling/burning sensation that often comes with vitamin C serums). Because ascorbyl tetraisopalmitate appears in formulas with a higher pH, it’s less likely to cause irritation.
Ascorbyl tetraisopalmitate is still young in the world of vitamin C sources, so only a few studies have been conducted so far. Some early studies show ascorbyl tetraisopalmitate to be more efficient and bioavailable than L-ascorbic acid, and equally effective as L-AA for combating signs of photoaging and enabling collagen synthesis. However, ascorbyl tetraisopalmitate is an expensive ingredient. Additionally, although ascorbyl tetraisopalmitate has positive anti-aging effects in concentrations as low as 3%, one study has shown that a concentration of 10% or more is needed to achieve significant whitening effects. On its own, this isn’t a big issue (L-AA needs a concentration of 10-15% to see whitening effects), but because of the higher cost of the ingredient, most formulas that use ascorbyl tetraisopalmitate don’t contain enough of it to see significant spot lightening benefits. As for this serum, if the “C15” in the name is anything to go by, then this formula contains 15% of the ingredient (which is enough to see lightening effects).
Combating photoaging with percutaneous collagen induction (PDF)
Desmond Fernandes, MB, Massimo Signorini, MD
Clinics in Dermatology, March–April 2008
Benefits of Combinations of Vitamin A, C and E Derivatives in the Stability of Cosmetic Formulations (PDF)
Mirela Donato Gianeti, Lorena Rigo Gaspar, Flávio Bueno de Camargo Júnior, Patrícia Maria Berardo, Gonçalves Maia Campos
Molecules, February 2012
Hyaluronic Acid
Hyaluronic acid (also called hyaluronan) is a polysaccharide naturally produced in the human body. Able to hold 1000 times its weight in water, hyaluronan plays an important role in wound healing as well as maintaining the structure and integrity of our skin. Like many of our naturally occurring beneficial skin components, we produce less hyaluronic acid as we age. Thankfully, we can topically apply some forms of hyaluronic acid and still obtain its hydrating, smoothing, wound healing, and barrier strengthening effects.
According to CosDNA, there are a couple low grade possible irritants or acne triggers in this formula. Tocopherol (vitamin E) scores a 2 out of 5 as both a potential irritant and acne trigger, and glyceryl stearate SE gets a 3 out of 3 as a potential acne trigger and a 2 out of 5 as a potential irritant.
Performance
Appearance
Caudalie Polyphenol C15 Anti-Wrinkle Defense Serum comes packaged in a green, glass jar with a dropper dispenser. The glass is thick and sturdy, and though it’s obviously breakable because, well, it’s glass, I’m extremely clumsy, especially in my tiny bathroom, and my bottle survived a fall to the floor and at least 2 sink dives. It’s possible I’m just lucky.
The product itself is white and nearly opaque. The consistency is considerably thicker than water, but much thinner than a typical face lotion.
pH
Ascorbyl tetraisopalmitate need a pH between 4.0 and 6.0 to function optimally. Caudalie Polyphenol C15 Anti-Wrinkle Defense Serum has a pH of ~5.0.
Smell
Caudalie Polyphenol C15 Anti-Wrinkle Defense Serum does contain fragrance, so if you’re sensitive to parfum ingredients, you’ll want to sit this one out. I’m not sensitive to fragrance, thankfully. I’m extremely smell driven when it comes to most things in life, except for my dog, who stinks 100% of the time, but I still love her. Unlike my dog, Caudalie Polyphenol C15 Anti-Wrinkle Defense Serum smells enchantingly like a white floral blend. If I had to name notes, I’d guess daisy and chrysanthemum.
Application
I used Caudalie Polyphenol C15 Anti-Wrinkle Defense Serum every morning for the duration of the bottle, which lasted me about 5 weeks. I use this serum for Step 5 in my Morning Skincare Routine, so after my hydrating toner (when I use one), but before my face oil.
To apply, I squeezed a “dropperful” of serum onto my fingertips and spread it over my face. The reason “dropperful” is in quotations is because it’s really not a full dropper’s worth of serum that gets sucked into the glass pipette when the top is squeezed. It’s probably more accurate to say, “one squeeze’s worth of serum,” but without context, that phrase makes absolutely no sense.
This serum definitely has some hydrating and emollient properties, but not so much that it could act as a standalone moisturizer. Dry skinned folks like myself will rejoice; those with oily skin may find that they need less moisturizer when using this serum. The serum absorbs quickly and is not greasy. It has a slightly tacky finish once it absorbs, but it’s completely undetectable once I’ve applied the rest of my routine.
Results
After using Caudalie Polyphenol C15 Anti-Wrinkle Defense Serum for a little over a month, my skin felt consistently smooth. I noticed some subtle smoothing of the fine lines in my eye and lip areas. My skin did appear somewhat brighter after the first 4 weeks, but not as dramatically as it has with other L-AA based serums in the past, or as visibly as it has with other, more powerful brightening products such as AHA treatments. This serum did not significantly lighten my existing post-inflammatory hyperpigmentation marks within the 5 weeks I used it. I experience absolutely no irritation from using this serum – not a single tingle. Those who are sensitive to L-AA serums will certainly appreciate this. I did not experience any breakouts as a result of using Caudalie Polyphenol C15 Anti-Wrinkle Defense Serum.
Overall, my feelings about this serum are a bit mixed. I think someone who is solely interested in the anti-wrinkle benefits of a vitamin C serum will adore this formula. It’s extremely pleasant to use, and I love how gentle it is. Its shelf stability is a big selling point, and I also really appreciate its moisturizing properties. If you have existing lines, this serum does a great job plumping the skin to obscure them in the short term while providing collagen synthesis benefits in the long term. However, I’m currently more interested in the brightening/lightening benefits I get from topically applied vitamin C, and that’s not this particular serum’s strength. I enjoyed this Caudalie serum, but I’ll be sticking with my L-AA based formulas for now.
Pros & Cons
| Pros | Cons |
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Skin & Tonics Rating
| B+ | 18/20 Efficacy | 13/20 Ingredients | 20/20 Application | 20/20 Wear | 18/20 Packaging |
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| Total: 89 | Rating system details » | ||||
Where to Buy
| Store | Price | Offers | |
|---|---|---|---|
| Sephora | $62 | • Receive a FREE NUDE Skincare Sample Set with any $25 purchase with code TRYNUDE • Receive Free Benefit Push-Up Liner Deluxe Sample with $25+ purchase with code PUSHUP •Receive Deluxe Mask Samples with $25+ orders with code YOURMASK | buy |
| SkinStore | $62 | Get $20 off your entire order with code JUL20 | buy |
| Planet Beauty (Amazon seller) | $62 | Free shipping | buy |
This post contains affiliate links. Shopping these links helps support this site. Full disclosure »
Hey Kerry! I know I’m always telling you the same, but: Awesome post, as usual.
I really do appreciate your in-depth knowledge about ingredients and how you explain what they do in a simple and easily understandable way!
That being said, I think I might give this product a try, next time I’m travelling to a country where there’s a Sephora.
But, as always, I’ve got a question: Do you know how long exactly the shelf live of L-ascorbic acid is? I’m thinking about purchasing a bunch of Vitamin C sheet masks with LAA, they are sold in a box containing 30 pieces. I’m just wondering how quickly I would need to use them up before they go bad?
Hi Yuri! Are the masks individually packaged in something that blocks out light? If so, and if the formula also contains some sort of preservative, I imagine you’d be okay as long as you used them all within 6 months. What brand are the masks? I’d be interested in trying a Vitamin C sheet mask myself! 🙂
ratzillacosme.com/skin/clear-turn-vc-essence-mask-vitamin-c/ Those are the masks I’m talking about, they are by the Japanese brand Kosé.
I guess they’re not individually packaged, though 🙁 Looks like they just jammed 30 pieces into one container.
As for preservatives: I’m not very familiar with all the different preservatives, but I know that these masks contain at least methylparaben.
What do you think, should I give them a try? I could pick them up on my vacation and thus save shipping costs, so they won’t be too pricey.
Ah, ok. If they are 30 pieces in one container, I would think the shelf life is really short. If you decide to try them, try to use them up within 90 days if you can. And keep an eye out for changes in color – if they darken at all then the L-AA has begun oxidizing. Please let me know what you think of them! I’m still intrigued, short shelf-life be damned!
Will do so! Thanks for your advice 🙂
Hey Kerry, loved this post! I am also an avid user of the OST LAA and have been using it for about 3 weeks. I’m already seeing hyperpigmentation (the ugly brown spot kind) benefits! Its amazing! It is even already working on a really severe brown spot left by a botched dermatologist visit. (I know!) I think I’ll stick to its irritating properties until I feel I’ve reduced my pigmentation enough 🙂 However, it’d be so great if it would take on some of this serum’s more amicable properties too! Lol!
That aside, I wanted to ask if you know of any cleansers (in the affordable range) that have a pH lower than 6 but also contain scrub-like beads or anything like that. I’m quite prone to clogs and that weird rough texture on my skin that I can scratch off almost? I’m sure someone knows what I mean LOL! Esp on the sides of my nose, near my nasal fold creases! Lol. I am using the Cerave hydrating cleanser but I think I need to switch to the foaming one after I’m through with this. Also, do you know of any asian cleansers that have a low pH? I remember you had tried the Misa Scrub and that had a pH of 6 which was pretty great, but I wanted to see if you knew of any others! 🙂 Thanks!
P.S. I just need this until I can get a good baseline routine down in order to start using chemical exfoliants! Hopefully with that I won’t need to use a physical scrub quite as much for that rough texture!
Hi Anna! Sadly, I have yet to encounter a scrub with the super low pH I tend to prefer. However, a pH of 7.0 (which is neutral – same as water) or lower should be fine for a scrub product/ physical exfoliation treatment. Are you open to sugar scrubs? All my favorite manual exfoliating products are sugar scrubs, since sugar melts when its wet, so it’s not as easy to over exfoliate with it as it is other types. I also like that I’m able to control how gentle or abrasive they are based on how wet or dry my face is when I apply it, how long I leave it on, and how long I massage it in before rinsing.
My absolute favorite sugar scrub is the Skinfood Strawberry Black Sugar Mask, but I also really enjoy the the cocoa sugar scrubs made by Missha and ElishaCoy.
Skinfood Strawberry Black Sugar Mask review:
https://skinandtonics.com/skinfood-black-sugar-strawberry-wash-mask-review/
ElishaCoy Milk Cacao Black Sugar Scrub Review :
https://skinandtonics.com/elishacoy-milk-cacao-black-sugar-scrub-review/
Thanks for the tips! I do love a low ph on my cleansers so I’ve decided to stick with a low one but integrate an AHA into my routine. Hopefully that will solve the majority of the issue. And whatever it doesn’t help, I’m sure good ole sugar will take care of 😀
Wow, such a thorough review. Thank you! It’s my first time visiting your blog.
I’ve been using this serum for a few weeks at night only (Kate Somerville Daily Discoloration Perfector mornings) and honestly haven’t noticed much of anything. It’s a nice light serum. No discernible radiance like I did with PC C15. Gave me a few break outs initially, but nothing serious. I figure it must be a preventative product. It’s good to know this form of Vitamin C has a longer shelf life. Speaking of which, do you know the approximate shelf life of Ole Henriksen’s Truth Serum? I’ve had a bottle for a year and I say it’s likely now ineffective, but the SA said the Vit Cis stabilized and should be fine.
Hi Linda! Nice to meet you!
The vitamin C in the Ole Henricksen serum is a vitamin C precursor called sodium ascorbyl phosphate. It works similarly to the vitamin c source in the Caudalie serum in the sense that it converts to ascorbic acid once it’s been absorbed into the skin. Sodium ascorbyl phosphate has a shelf life of 24 months from the date of manufacture if the product hasn’t been opened, so you might still be okay!
That’s good news. I was going to pitch it. I don’t really care for the way it feels on my combo/oily skin, but maybe I can work with it in the Fall. So many products, but only one face…
So glad you reviewed this product, because I recently discovered Ascorbyl Tetraisopalmitate and was interested in trying it out. I found a product by a Taiwanese brand call UNT that has a anti-pigment serum call EX White VCIP Boost. It contains 3% Ascorbyl Tetraisopalmitate and 3% Tranexamic Acid. The ingredients sound promising and the price is significantly cheaper than Caudalie. However, after learning about your disappointing results with Ascorbyl Tetraisopalmitate, I’m not sure if I should still give it a go. I am in the same situation as you. I’m more interested in getting rid of pigmentation rather lessening lines.
Is the O.S.T. Original Pure Vitamin C20 Serum still your favorite anti-pigmentation/brightening serum at the moment? Any other budget finds you would recommend? Thanks again.
This is the ingredient list for the UNT serum I mentioned above.
Ascorbyl Tetraisopalmitate, Allantoin, Water, Acetyl Hexapeptide-3, Polyglycerylmethacrylate, Tranexamic Acid, Butylene Glycol, Aloe Barbadensis Leaf Extract, Glycerin, Grapefruit Seed Extract, C12-15 Alkyl Benzoate / Tribehenin / Ceramide 2 / PEG-10 Rapeseed Sterol / Palmitoyl Oligopeptide, PEG-40 Hydrogenate Castor oil, Carbomer / Polysorbate 20 / Palmitoyl Pentapeptide-4, Niacinamide, Xanthan Gum, Lecithin, Licorice Extract, Chlorphenesin, Tocopheryl Acetate, Polyglutamic Acid, Sodium Hyaluronate, Glycyrrhizic Acid, Sodium Bisulfite, Disodium EDTA.
Hi Sarah! I agree with you – I think if you’re looking for brightening/lightening effects, that UNT serum is likely to disappoint. My favorite vitamin C serum for that purpose is still OST. 🙂
I’m not sure it’s 15% Ascorbyl Tetraisopalmitate. I think Polyphenol C15 is the name of the line. Caudalie has a face oil called Polyphenol C15 Overnight Detox Oil, and it has zero trace of Ascorbyl Tetraisopalmitate in it.
IMO, this product probably contain 5% Ascorbyl Tetraisopalmitate.
Good to know about the detox oil, David! That makes sense. My initial guess was 3%-5% for this product based on its position in the ingredient list (an earlier live version of this post actually showed those numbers). Then I thought about my other C serums with numbers in the name (Paula’s Choice C15 and OST C20), and those numbers do represent the percentage of the C ingredient. If the 15 in C15 for this serum doesn’t represent the amount of C in it, I wonder what it actually stands for. Do you have any guesses? I’m stumped!
Not sure, I’m stumped too.
On a slightly related note, the only product I know with high concentration of Ascorbyl Tetraisopalmitate is Glytone’s Antioxidant Anti-Aging Serum with a whopping 20% of Ascorbyl Tetraisopalmitate. Sigh, if only I could afford it.
A more affordable way to get high concentration of Ascorbyl Tetraisopalmitate is to buy the raw ingredient it self, and since it’s lipid soluble it would make sense to blend it with facial oil. .25oz of Ascorbyl Tetraisopalmitate is about $15, blend it with your favorite facial oil, and voila, 1 oz of beauty cocktail with 25% of Ascorbyl Tetraisopalmitate. Though the high concentration is to compensate the fact that you would only use a few drop at a time.
Excuse the blabble, as you can tell I’m passionate about skincare. Nonetheless, food for thought.
Correction to thyself, Sanitas’ Vita C Serum has 25% Ascorbyl Tetraisopalmitate, it’s slightly cheaper that Glytone’s Antioxidant Anti-Aging Serum too.
This looks really different to any of the Vitamin C serums I’ve tried – it’s a short list, but still. It’s milky! Based on your review I think OST should be the next one I test though. Thanks for the awesome review as always!
Have you tried any other products from Caudalie?
Hi Ida! I’ve tried some deluxe sample sizes of the Premiere Cru products. I really enjoyed the moisturizer and plan to purchase a full size to try out and review in the future. I’ve also used the Caudalie Grape Water and really enjoyed that one as well.
I’ve recently purchased Alpha Hydrox’s 10% aha glycolic gel to see if I can help my acne/texture without having to deal with retinoids! However, I’m also using the OST c20! Any tips on which I should apply first? Also should I wait in between using those? At the moment I use OST, wait 30 mins or so for neutralization and continue with my missha FTE and an etude house emulsion. Thank you!
Since they are both acidic products, you can use them together without waiting in between. Though I never had any experience with either, I would use the OST C20 first as I presume it’s the lighter texture one of the two, wait a min or two for it to absorb, then apply the 10% AHA. Wait 30 mins then continue with the rest of your routine.
Thanks for the advice, David! If pigmentation is your worry then I most defintely recommend the OST serum! It has significantly lightened my brown spots after acne by leaps and bounds and it hasn’t even been a month of use yet! However I asked because I know that OST and most l ascorbic acid based products work well around a ph of 3.5 as Kerry mentioned above! The BHA gel is at a ph of 4 (according to the brand) so if I don’t wait between applying them, do I run the risk of rendering my ost ineffective due to the rise in ph?
Thanks of the tip, Anna. That’s good to hear as I have a abundant (one moment while I try not to weep) of PIH on my face, though they are red instead of brown. I’m currently using another Ascorbic C serum (OUI, available on Amazon, and according to one reviewer has a pH between 1.5 and 2!), and I will definitely try the OST once the bottle is finish.
Good point on the pH. If you are worried, then you can definitely add a wait time between the two. Though I would only wait 10-15 minutes since you’re only waiting for your skin to rebound from pH of 3.5 (assuming that the pH of the OST serum) to pH of 4.
Ah, well I’ve seen the red ones vanish through Kerry’s review! She has pics posted 🙂 As well as personal experience! I had a botched dermatologist visit and she left me with red scars after doing an extraction that felt more like her mining for gold on my face! Those were probably more from irritation but those red marks were completely gone for me after a week of using the OST! It’s affordable too at around 20$! I hope you have good results with it as well 🙂
Thanks for the advice on wait times, the shorter wait time makes sense and is greatly appreciated since this does make my routine a bit longer at bedtime now! 🙂
Hi Kerry! Once again excellent review 😀 It’s such a shame that Caudalie uses fragrance in their skin care since the formula sounds good. I avoid fragrances like cat avoids water,since those give me redness and I actually gel less breakouts and those are usually from my nasty pcos.Tried ever to stay away from fragrances and essential oils?
Btw which form of vitamin C have you found to be most effective by now ?
Hey Kerry. Would you happen to know of any light emulsion or gel moisturizer type products with an effective concentration of Alpha-Arbutin? I suffer from dark spots after acne and I’ve heard the alpha isomer of arbutin is almost as effective as the controversial HQ at lightening dark spots, without the nasty side effects HQ is notorious for possibly having. I’ve heard of Hada Labo’s Perfect Gel with Arbutin but I’m not sure how to figure out if it is the alpha or beta variant. Thanks 🙂
How serendipitous, my friend recently gifted me this serum and here you have written a review about the exact same product. 😀 Thanks!
Even though it seems less potent (but on the plus side, less irritating), I quite like that this has squalane in it and am still excited to try it. Mostly though my ears perked up at “longer shelf life properties” – because as much as I love OST, I have yet to come anywhere close to finishing a bottle before the product oxidizes, and it bugs me to have to throw the rest out – so does this mean I don’t need to keep this in a fridge? How long would a bottle keep for after it has been opened?
Loved this review, super informative! Could you also do a similar review for Vain Pursuits? I’d love to hear your opinion on them!
I would also love a second opinion on Vain Pursuits. I think they do customized skincare. Been wanting to try them out but would have like to read on a few reviews before doing so!
Thanks Kerry! U are so convincing that I went to get it straight away just after reading Ure review:) And the serum is grate! I love the smell- bit like a fresh petits-pois (green been?)
Hi Kerry,
I was wondering if you have tried the similar serum from Caudalie called Polyphenol C15 Overnight Detox Oil? I almost confused these two when I was reading reviews on Sephora’s website. This serum does not seem to have any bad ingredients according to Cosdna (there have been several entries), and has more positive reviews than the anti-wrinkle serum ( which many have reported that it has broken them out, several “not for sensitive skin/acne” reviews). Just wanted your take on it if you have.
I’m bummed, the serum has triggered an acne break out. I like the Caudalie matifying fluid very much (which appears to be absent of the serum’s irritant ingredients). I also loved the Premières vendanges Moisturizing Cream (also without these irritants). Do you think I could use this serum only around the eye area (underneath my eye cream) before I give it away to a friend? Do you have a suggestion for a vitamin C serum that won’t make me break out? Thanks much!
I’m also interested in trying other vitC serums over there. So far I’ve tried the Paula’s Choice C15. Next one may be this you review here, or the Kiehl’s Powerful-Strength Line-Reducing Concentrate. I haven’t gone deep into their formulas but I may get the Kiehl’s one because of its pump. In Paula’s Choice reviews she always points out that some skincare products in jar may lose properties because of opening and closing the lid and so getting oxigen and germs into there…and her vitC serum is no exception. So Kiehl’s one seems to have a reasonable packaging for such a product.
I’ve heard good things about this caudalie product! Going on my wish ♥ list now.